Play Now Theory Later

First, let’s get one thing straight: I am NOT writing this article to downplay the importance of learning music theory. The point of this article is to contest the viewpoint that a musician who wants to learn how to “rock” before they learn how Canon was composed in D Major will be somewhat limited in their ability to play and compose music. The key argument I will be making is that you can learn theory after learning how to rock, without even trying to learn it.

I will give you a bit of background about me. Not because I want to feel like a celebrity or because I have an ego (and I do), but because this article relates to guitarists like me and therefore my own experience can serve as foundation for my argument.

I love many genres of music. I believe that learning an instrument can give you a greater appreciation/understanding of music and can open your mind to other genres because of your love for the sound of your instrument. I was never into Guns ‘n’ Roses until I started playing guitar and heard Slash make his guitar sing.

When I was very young I enjoyed listening to classical music. I never delved into the composure of it, I had no need to. I wasn’t going to play the violin or the piano, I just loved the melodious sounds. I had a basic understanding of sheet music because I learnt the recorder in grade two (didn’t we all). I didn’t take in any of the theory taught in high school music class, I felt more enjoyment could be had from watching grass grow. I just played with the percussion effects on the keyboards. The first thing I learnt on guitar was the Peter Gunn theme. It was unintentional, someone taught me to play it. I had no motivation to learn guitar, although I did envy those who could.

Then I saw a band at my high school cover Blink 182’s “Dammit”. I was hooked on that riff and all I wanted to do was play it. I wanted to pick up a guitar and rock, like so many of you when you first got that urge to learn. I bought a Strat copy at age thirteen and began lessons with a teacher. I received three lessons before my teacher told me he was accepting an offer to teach music overseas (was I that bad?). In those lessons I learnt five major things:

01. A proper picking/strumming action and how to hold a plectrum.
02. I had tightened my strings so much my guitar neck had bent.
03. The 12 Bar Blues, Joy To The World, Amazing Grace.
04. How to play sheet music using the first 3 frets.
05. Playing guitar starts to feel like work if someone tells you to do it and what to do.

Learning sheet music was boring. I wanted to play Dammit, dammit! Scarred from the lessons, I did not seek out another guitar teacher. A friend introduced me to the concept of guitar tablature and I got hooked on that. Many months went by, I got better and better at playing and slowly started learning more complex songs. The day I learnt Dammit was perhaps the happiest day in my guitar playing life. But I didn’t stop there, and neither did you people with the songs that made you want to learn. I moved onto other music that made more complex use of guitars e.g. Guns ‘n’ Roses, Eagles, Bon Jovi, Avenged Sevenfold etc.

Theory gives music a universal language. A language that we can speak using any instrument we learn how to play. When two instruments speak the same language they produce a harmonious sound. Without this language we would be unable to form bands/orchestras/quartets/quintets/sextets/whatever.

I believe that you do not need to want to learn theory to be able to learn it. You will, however, need to want to compose your own music. With this desire you will explore and discover it all for yourself. After years of playing guitar without ever having touched a musical theory book, I can tell you that most (if not all) of it will come naturally with time and practice. Whether our names for items of theory are consistent or not is irrelevant, I’ve still learnt them and attached my own labels to them. Down the track I will pick up the names you use for items of theory from talking to you, e.g. melody, pitch, harmony, octave, scale, modal etc. The transition will be easy because I already know the content of these, all I am missing are your labels. When I learn these we can make our instruments speak the same language.

If you disagree with me at this point, then I ask you, how did musicians compose songs and play in harmony before any concept of universal theory was developed?

Up until a couple of weeks ago I didn’t even know what music theory was. I looked up a few definitions and some lessons and realised it was all that I had discovered over my years of playing guitar. I learnt my own theory through mimicking those I idolise musically. Every guitar technique I learnt came from tablature. I learnt scales from solos in songs like “All Torn Down” (The Living End). I learnt that the most efficient way to play these scales was to use all four fingers. I learnt the names of scales through tuning my guitar with an electronic tuner and saying “right, that’s a C#”. I learnt an order of notes through moving the scale up a fret at a time and saying “that one’s a D”. I know that the B string is tuned 4 steps higher than the G string as opposed to the rest of the strings which have 5 steps difference between each other. From this I concluded that scales must move up or down a fret when you shift to the B string. I learnt that melody isn’t fret 12, 13, 14, it’s 12, 13, 15. Skip a fret here, add one there. Patterns such as these form melodious combinations fit for solos. I can now improvise solos in a specific key. Because I made these discoveries for myself, I did not stop at learning what was “written in the book” like some (but not all!) of the theory-first guitarists I know did. I started exploring my own techniques for creating effects and attached mathematics and semantics to my guitar playing. Does that sound like limited ability to play and compose music? If it sounds like I am boasting, then good. I am proud of what I have achieved by myself, and I’m sure there are many on this site who have a similar story or can atleast relate. Yes, many successful self-taught guitarists eventually turned to theory books to further their composition skills, but many did just what I did.

Having never learnt theory formally, I cannot accurately compare this method of learning to my own. I can, however, offer you my opinion based on seeing other people learning formally. Learning theory my way was a lot of fun. It was a great personal discovery every time I noticed something like a pattern. I didn’t sit there rote learning it from a book, or trying to transfer what I’m reading onto the strings. Apart from my few lessons, I never learnt something on guitar that I didn’t want to learn.

I do not think there is anything wrong with learning theory-first or simultaneously with learning to play guitar. If you believe that is the best way to learn, or you had a keen enough interest in theory to want to learn it, more power to you. Contrary to the impression this article may give you, I actually believe this to be the most efficient way to learn guitar for the purposes of composing music. My method took longer, though I felt it was far more enjoyable. And I do not feel limited in my ability to compose music. I am fed up with the criticism about those who are eager to get playing before they even hear the word scale. If like me, these musicians want to learn how to compose later on, they will. As I said earlier, as long as you want to learn how to compose music then theory will come to you naturally through self discovery. Thank you for reading my lengthy viewpoint, even if you disagree with it. I respect alternative opinion and welcome any comments you may have. Peace.

Comments

[sloppyjaloppy86]

Great article. Good to see someone who can present their own ideas and also accept those of others.

[NO RULES_punk]

I loved that article.
I think the same as you, the great of music is playing and feeling the sounds of what you like, and you don't need scales or music theory for that.

[lastroseonstage]

Great article. i couldnt agree with you more.

[The_Man_IV]

Veyr good article agree I learned much of Beggining theory from jsut playing and taking notice of it now of course i get lessons and learn everthing i can

but its allways a sweet feeling Of "WOW" when you find things out your self .

[tiky]

man, you are a clone of myself on another place of the world; I started playing guitar because i saw a school band playing blink 182, the only difference is that the song was CAROUSEL!
The rest is almost exactly like my experience with guitar, now i'm 20 and also listen to all type of music; had learnt all of my guitar knowdoledge of this site by tablature (yes, all on this site i love it!)
Man, we are the same person xD!

[mattyp90]

I'm completely self-taught, been playing for about 3 years now. I started playing for fun and to express myself. Playing scales up and down for ten minutes isn't fun, so I didn't take that route; playing along with songs I liked in any way that sounded good was fun, so that's where I started. I've never wanted to go out intentionally to learn any scales, but in my time playing around with notes I, like the author, learned the groups of notes that sounded good together (in other words, scales) and now I do know a whole load of scales, just not by their names. I can play along to any song, and given a little time I can tell you how to play it as well.
Not learning theory doesn't make you a musical dumbass.
Good article.

[Robman2k9]

NO RULES_punk wrote:

I loved that article.
I think the same as you, the great of music is playing and feeling the sounds of what you like, and you don't need scales or music theory for that.

oh yes you do. Theres not a decent guitarist out there that doesn't know any theory.

[Heavil]

I started when I saw someone who was trying to play freebird. He was playing for 8years and had very good musical knowledge. Thats is where I told myself: " I love guitar" =)

[Glen'sHeroicAct]

good article. i like that you mentioned that feeling of joy when you find something out yourself. when i do that, i always end up working out the theory and stuff, and find it was something simple that i should have already known, but i actually took the long way round to figure it out. i hate that. so i guess since i already know theory, all those moments are just disappointments that i already knew what i was figuring out. so good for you, non-theorists, you get to be happier than me.

[Godbe]

I read the first half or so of that article, and I have to say I agree with you completely. I've been playing for about 5 years now, but I only learnt my pentatonics about a year or so ago (which is hard to believe, looking back on it). But now I'm teaching myself theory and I find it very interesting. I have to agree with what you said about someone telling you what to do can feel like work, because I've started having proper lessons now, and it does feel like work...

[hippyguitardude]

Robman2k9 wrote:

NO RULES_punk wrote:

I loved that article.
I think the same as you, the great of music is playing and feeling the sounds of what you like, and you don't need scales or music theory for that.

oh yes you do. Theres not a decent guitarist out there that doesn't know any theory.

i dont think that was the point of the article... it was more that you will learn theory naturally as you play

[-Ryan-]

I did the same thing, was offered lessons as a kid and hated it. Later decided to pick it up and just play songs that I wanted to play, rather then beginner songs. Now that I can actually play, and am taking some university courses, im going back and learning the theory now that I have appreciation for it. I don't think i would have continued starting with theory.

[ilovecanada1121]

I taught myself guitar and didnt bother with any kind of theory until about 1 1/2 years in, and by then it was really easy because i knew how to do it, i just needed to know why. Knowing the reasons for doing things is pointless unless you have the skills to pull it off.

[amorebelladonna]

You do learn theory gradually through analysis of music and songs you play, I learned to play most of what I play by learning a black sabbath song, and then adding in what else I thought, but ever since I have taken a theory class in school, my progress as a musician, not only a guitarist, blows my mind. When you learn music theory, you can switch to another instrument and play it well after only a few months of playing, because you know what the formula for the music and what you want to do is. This is what I have to say. If you want to play guitar, learn guitar, but if you want to be a musician learn theory.

One more thing Not learning theory doesnt make you a musical dumbass, but not learning theory when it is given to you, not trying to be the best musician you can possibly be, makes you ignorant.

[untalented]

"It was a great personal discovery every time I noticed something like a pattern". Agree completely.
For me, there's music theory from books, intuitive music theory and guitar theory. I have no problem learning the first two but the last one makes playing the guitar boring for me. I love playing the guitar and I'll learn more out of playing it for hours without guitar theory as opposed to sitting down, bored silly and trying to play for an hour a day which effectively is not an hour because I am not paying much attention.

[pitbull510]

good article, personally i like a hybrid: get a few things straight from a book or your guitar teacher, then figure the rest out.

[Ibanezax372]

I hate people that use
'Learnt". First of all it is not a word and second of all it is "Learned". Please use correct grammer next time.

[msierragtz]

I think people can learn how to play withouth any theorie as you mention it, I've seen it many times.
Nevertheless, I think that if they teach you theory and most importantly technique, in the right way..
You can become a decent guitarist much faster.
I've seen really good self-thaught guitarists, but they usually take some years to start playing well. Whereas a good guitar student, can be playing in months, and knowing what he's doing.

[CanCan]

That made no sense whatsoever to me. I played another instrument before I found the guitar, so I had a basic understanding of theory. And I do mean theory, not just reading. And guess what, that theory only helped me progress. I found the same things you did, only faster. A lot of people think of theory as intricate chord progressions with inversions and tensions, or practising a scale. It's not.

[metalzeppelin]

This is exaclty what I did. I learned (NOT learNT) songs first (Blink 182) before theory. You need to learn what you are doing before you try to write your own stuff and that means technique. Plus, when you do accidently stumble on a scale while you are playing then you can try to understand it. Plus, once you get past the first couple months and decide to stick with guitar then you can learn theory. When you learn Back in Black you will want to play, you will not want to play the C major scale. I would say songs help people stick with guitar better than immediatley learning theory which would be boring for a new person.

[cashewchaching]

You are kind of missing theory, though. Theory isn't knowing what notes are in what scales, it's what notes work together to form a specific chord, it's realizing what passing tones you can use to switch from one to the other, it's knowing what minor chord will work with what major chord.
Don't get me wrong, all that you have learned is good (although wrong in some parts) but you kind of missed the boat as to what thoery is. Theory is something that is next to impossible to learn without instruction. It's like trying to learn a language by just looking at one sentence.
An okay article, though. Check spelling in places, though.

[burndttoast]

Ibanezax372 wrote:

I hate people that use
'Learnt". First of all it is not a word and second of all it is "Learned". Please use correct grammer next time.

Give the guy a break. Grammar/spelling was not the point of his article. At least he was concise with a majority of what he had to say.
In regards to the article: I agree. It varies from person to person, whether they want to play just for fun or if they want to learn theory and all the technical stuff (and have fun too, I suppose). It doesn't make someone better if they do know theory. The proverb holds true: "Whatever floats your boat."

[kaze_no_oto]

Robman2k9 wrote:

NO RULES_punk wrote:

I loved that article.
I think the same as you, the great of music is playing and feeling the sounds of what you like, and you don't need scales or music theory for that.


oh yes you do. Theres not a decent guitarist out there that doesn't know any theory.

Catch 22. The guy writing the article proved this point - you can KNOW theory without knowing that it's theory. So, in essence, every guitarist who's been playin for a while knows SOME theory, as you said, even though they may not relate it to 'theory' becuase it wasn't taught to them and, as the author said, don't have the technical name for it.

[krysis83]

i couldn't agree with this article more... for the first three months or so of my guitar-playing "career", i took lessons. I found that the lessons made playing more of a chore than a hobby. Eventually my teacher ditched me, and i started learning to play on my own. Not only did i learn faster, i also realised how fun playing actally is. Of course with lessons i got a little help starting up, like the picking/basic chords n stuff, but all in all i think taking lessons/learning theory is really overrated

[whitebluesboy]

I agree with the title. Play now to get an interest in the instrument and have fun with it, then learn theory later to get good at what you have fun doing. That doesn't mean learning concepts of bach counterpoint or shit like that, but learning 1-IV-V and the major scale can't hurt.

[mooman_24]

yeah i agree totally with this article, for me myself i love theory and i constantly read up and practise it, but i really admire people who don't understnad theory and yet they play so nicely. haha. i agree with ^play the instrument first, then learn theory later, i started out with blink 182 too! haha

[spiroth10]

gotta say, I agree with you. I'm pretty much learning the same way. I know my scales now, only because I downloaded tabs of major/minor/pentatonic/etc. scales, and found out what chords went along with them to produce keys, and now I know how.

It was really exciting when I figured out how to get things to stick, and make sure my solos made sense with the rhythm.

I simply get completely confused trying to read about theory, but I still get better and better.

[garthunkle]

I must say that i feel the best way to learn is through a tutor. The first 2 i had were really bad and i learnt nothing for the first 1yr of playing. I then got a new teacher and I've learnt so much more. I learnt theory while i was learning songs and that worked best for me. I have no idea how some self taught guitarists learn all the more complex things like arpeggios and non-western scales. Great article! Do what suits u!

[metalmania1231]

I think this is a very good article. I have only been playing for about 4 months and I haven't started lessons yet, I am just learning songs that I want to learn because it's fun for me, and the first song i learned was What's my Age Again, i guess people like learning Blink 182 lol. I have learned a small amount of theory though just by playing what I want. But I think you should play what you want and have fun first rather than learn theory. Plus you get a good feeling out of playing a song you taught yourself.

[ZootCst]

I played in a successful band for several years with a guitar player who absolutely rocked the crowd every time. It was an Eddie Van Hendrix experience. He played entirely by ear, though. He couldn't tell you what key he was in, what chord he was playing, nothing. He couldn't understand what I was trying to tell him was going on musically, and couldn't follow other players at all. It was extremely frustrating, but when he knew a song, he owned it!

[Zar Mulix]

I agree with the article as well. I've seen alot of people criticize many for not knowing what key they're in
or what scale they are using and so on. I feel that a true musician uses theory as a tool, but never as a way to write a song (if that makes any sense) Creativity comes from the musician's mind, and therefore theory should be used as a guide, not as rules.
On that note, I know nothing about scales or keys and modes. I just play what I feel like playing, and that is what I feel helps people keep playing. I'll eventually learn it, once I have the skill and creativity to write my own songs. But for now Racer X songs remind me of alot of scales I've seen, so I try playing them.

[AFriendOfMisery]

Well, you make alot of good points, but the only issue is that once you learn to look at guitar in a certain way (like just learning random songs by tab), it makes it really hard to start looking at your guitar in terms of "E A D G B E" instead of "Open first, open second.." and so on.
Learning theory is pretty important, but you are right in some ways because knowing how to hold the damn guitar right helps alot too.
Basically, you have a really good article, but instead of going straight to playing other people's stuff, you should learn at least a little theory first, probably from Major scales and key until triads.

[ElBarto2811]

Well my brother-in-law thinks exactly like you. We both started playing the guitar at the same time, and after three years I think I can tell I'm teaching him now. What I'm saying is indeed you don't need to know theory, but it so much easier and faster if you do. For example my brother-in-law knows you have to play frets 0-2-3-5-7-8-10-12 to 'sound good' by experimenting, I knew this almost instantly when I learned what a minor scale was.

[hengler]

Good article, it's true that without making any attempt to consciously learn theory it naturally comes from playing stuff.

Ibanezax372 wrote:

I hate people that use
'Learnt". First of all it is not a word and second of all it is "Learned". Please use correct grammer next time.

1) 'Learnt' is a word. Simple past tense of learn. Now, if you're in America, 'learned' is correct, but funnily enough some people who speak English are from.. England.. (or the U.K. in general, or in fact practically any English speaking country other than America), where 'learnt' is correct.

2) When you pull people up on errors like that, I really recommend you actually have a clue what you're talking about. Also, make a note of the spelling of 'grammar', please.

[Kyuss_]

good article, very true, thats the route i took. in recent months i have started writing my own music and have needed to use theory to compose music that i am happy with, if your playing for fun jus learn what you need if you want to be a musician your going to have to get the theory book out!

[japes]

hengler wrote:

Good article, it's true that without making any attempt to consciously learn theory it naturally comes from playing stuff.

Ibanezax372 wrote:

I hate people that use
'Learnt". First of all it is not a word and second of all it is "Learned". Please use correct grammer next time.

1) 'Learnt' is a word. Simple past tense of learn. Now, if you're in America, 'learned' is correct, but funnily enough some people who speak English are from.. England.. (or the U.K. in general, or in fact practically any English speaking country other than America), where 'learnt' is correct.

2) When you pull people up on errors like that, I really recommend you actually have a clue what you're talking about. Also, make a note of the spelling of 'grammar', please.

pwned

[punkrock4all]

I'm 14 and I've been playing for about a year and a half, and i've been learning basically the same way you did. great article!

[Mortigi Tempo]

theory is very important by learning basic chords and how to solo around a few scales like minor pentatonic, major and minor you become a much better player. I know a lot of people who are like yeah i dont know any theory but im naturally great cause i am jimi hendrix and its like no youre not youre crap. All this theory isnt needed stuff is just an excuse for lazy people to be crap I think.

[Atreideslegend]

really bad article, many of your arguements are badly thought out, whats all this stuff about "theory first?" I dont know a single guitar player that learnt theory before playing their guitar and i dont agree with this whole concept of seperating "theory" and "playing". The two are synonomous and should not be seperated.

I dont care what anyone says, if you cant play in key then you will never be a good musician, how you learn to do it doesnt matter, there are just easy ways and harder ways. I suggest anyone reading this article should just ignore it and find your own way of doing things, by saying "you dont have to learn theory" you're just doing the same thing as people that say "you have to learn theory", can u not just be silent?

[KManLink]

This is pretty much how I've been teaching myself for the past 3 or so years. My friends have taken lessons, but I feel like when I teach myself a song, then I can look at the music theory so I can ask myself "Why does this part sound good?"

Many self-taught guitarists have a hard time learning at first, but when they find ways to apply the basic things they know, such as scales and basic chords, their knowledge can grow much faster. That's why I seem to enjoy guitar so much, and decided to stick with it all these years. And I'm not saying guitarists taking lessons would be not as good in the future, but my friends who do, it seems they just learn the stuff (12 bar blues, pentatonic scales) and then they just go off with it to use it when they play in their blues band. Hopefully I'm wrong about that, and they're actually going home and applying it. And they do sound good, at their good at their stuff.

Anyway, excellent article. I really enjoy theory. Sure it involves more thinking when you play guitar, but eventually those little things will instantly pop into your head. Like I'm making up some riffs and I suddenly think "Ooh, that's in Lydian mode. Sweet." Theory truly makes us better musicians and better composers.

By the way, this one familiar melody got stuck in my head the other day, I remember playing it in band class, but couldn't remember what the song was. Thanks for mentioning "the Peter Gunn theme," now I remember!

[KManLink]

Uh, let me fix 2nd paragraph, last sentence: and they know their stuff.

[quote=Birds] If you disagree with me at this point, then I ask you, how did musicians compose songs and play in harmony before any concept of universal theory was developed?[/quote]

The music was far more crude before they started developing theory. It was unrefined, and they had very little idea about structure, dissonance treatment, and counterpoint. It was far simpler and basic in the time you mention.

There are many guitarists like you. It's good you feel proud, as you should.

However, you will have several holes in your knowledge. You may be able to get your point across, but you will always be missing things that may be very important. Now of course, it all depends on what your goals are. Mine must certainly be very different than yours.

Further, even while learning theory "from a book", you can still make these discoveries. Learning from a book does not mean that their has to be a strict and dry regiment to it. You can just learn more whenever you want to, or feel you need it. With it, you can be sure you are going down the right track instead of getting bits of understanding. You don't make the same grand connections if you don't have a solid base understanding that you get from learning "formally".

If you want to play guitar, learn guitar, but if you want to be a musician learn theory.

Of course, there is always exceptions.

Just imagine being an architect and not knowing the mechanics of your job. You might have this great idea for a very interesting, modern looking building, but you will have no idea how to put it together if you didn't study the proper physics and geometry required.

[s/ash]

Thats like how I learned only I knew all the theory before I played guitar

[D3f3nd3r]

yeah I did exactly the same. learnt everythink by the four horsemen, then went to take lessons

and like my teacher says: "I think it's more effective learning from songs than from books"

[D3f3nd3r]

everything*

[trando]

i learned to play guitar cuz i lived in a small town with nothing to do. i didnt have the attention span to learn a song, never mind theory. but now, i live in a city, and alot of my friends play guitar, all ofem learned out of a book or the like, and i found that i play evrey scale they know when i'm just messing around. theres something to be said about learning scales and whatnot, but so long as you want to play something cool or do something new, you can teach yourself a whole lot about guitar theory withought even knowing it.

[MESAexplorer]

I've never learned any theory. I've always pulled the chops I like from musicians I like. When I write songs I'll write down what notes I hit then go on www.guitarists.net/scales and figure out which scale I'm using, 90% of the time its a mode of some sort.

[trouble37]

Thats pretty much exactly how i learned it, maybe a few guitar world mag lessons in there too. I learned What a pentatonic Scale was by learning the solo to stairway to heaven.

[zhille]

Nah...this discussion is useless, you can be a good guitarist BUT - you cant be a COMPLETE guitarist without understanding and learning theory AND without good technique to express that knowledge.

The article is good, but some of you guys spoil it all.

One guy said - Do what you think is best.

[mp3stalin]

i think the point he's getting at is... there's two ways to learn theory... learn theory first then play with it, or play with theory then learn it... kindof like when cavemen made fire as opposed to us making fire... they didnt know what it was... but they knew how to do it, and we do know what it is ...we just learn how to do it after learning what it is.

and that both ways work and it's just a question of which works better for you.

[FDream Theater]

hehehe seems like everyone started with Blink 182
I started with Maiden very good start I think this article is reality to some people here but you always need teorhy ALWAYS you can't be a complete guitarist without knowing anything about teorhy!
great article although

[FDream Theater]

theory*

[Septerra]

Thanks for writing this pal. I've been playing for about two months now and started looking at theory only a couple weeks in because I kept getting hammered with the message that I needed it to be anything. The major scale made a little since to me, even though I couldn't possibly apply it playing yet, but then when I got to the circle of fifths and key signatures, I was completely overwelmed. I was frustrated that none of the articles I read told me how to use the things I learned on the guitar step by step with each new thing learned. I think I'm going to lay off this theory that gives me a pounding headache every time I look at it, and I'll come back to it when I become a better player.

[Timefore]

I disagree with this article. Was it Miles Davis who said "Jazz is 99% perspiration 1% inspiration"?
Although music comes from the heart - you need a solid foundation. What you're saying is that you can learn the language of music without theory. Well, maybe, but what's the point? Learning chord structure, interesting scales, harmony, whatever is extremely worthwhile and fun. Perhaps you just had a bad teacher - the teachers I have had have been stimulating and encourage me to take the initiative.
Imagine trying to learn a new language with no theory - you could do it, it'd just be pointlessly hard.

[guynaa]

good article i can relate to many of the things u said.
i laso discoverd the 12 13 15 and i learned the a minor scale from the end lick from the intro to fade to black

[Birds]

Wow! What an overwhelming response! I never thought there would be such a large consensus in agreement with my view on the topic. Thank you for the kind comments, and thank you for the constructive criticism. It's refreshing to see a community where people offer intelligent responses instead of name calling clutter when there is disagreement.

I must apologise to the "Learnt/Learned" people. I am Australian and consequently have been taught British spelling/grammar. Thanks for pointing that out hengler! Now for some responses.

amorebelladonna wrote:

You do learn theory gradually through analysis of music and songs you play, I learned to play most of what I play by learning a black sabbath song, and then adding in what else I thought, but ever since I have taken a theory class in school, my progress as a musician, not only a guitarist, blows my mind. When you learn music theory, you can switch to another instrument and play it well after only a few months of playing, because you know what the formula for the music and what you want to do is. This is what I have to say. If you want to play guitar, learn guitar, but if you want to be a musician learn theory.

One more thing Not learning theory doesnt make you a musical dumbass, but not learning theory when it is given to you, not trying to be the best musician you can possibly be, makes you ignorant.

I definitely agree with you. As I said, theory gives music a universal language that can be spoken by any instrument you learn how to play. I have taken my knowledge of chords/notes and used it to transfer songs from guitar to piano and vice versa. I think if I were to take up the piano I would learn much faster than someone starting fresh because I already have some theory to go by. I don't think you could call it ignorant to cast aside theory. I'm sure they all know how beneficial it would be to learn it formally, but not everyone wants to learn that way. Music is such a personal thing - it is very much a matter of each to their own.

CanCan wrote:

That made no sense whatsoever to me. I played another instrument before I found the guitar, so I had a basic understanding of theory. And I do mean theory, not just reading. And guess what, that theory only helped me progress. I found the same things you did, only faster. A lot of people think of theory as intricate chord progressions with inversions and tensions, or practising a scale. It's not.

Please read the entire article! I did describe this function/purpose of theory and I did state in my conclusion that I believed theory first (your method) to be the most efficient way of learning to compose music, albeit in my opinion, the least enjoyable.

cashewchaching wrote:

You are kind of missing theory, though. Theory isn't knowing what notes are in what scales, it's what notes work together to form a specific chord, it's realizing what passing tones you can use to switch from one to the other, it's knowing what minor chord will work with what major chord.
Don't get me wrong, all that you have learned is good (although wrong in some parts) but you kind of missed the boat as to what thoery is. Theory is something that is next to impossible to learn without instruction. It's like trying to learn a language by just looking at one sentence.
An okay article, though. Check spelling in places, though.

I couldn’t tell you what notes work together to form a specific chord. But I could certainly show you. I can almost guarantee I have learnt all that you describe, I just do not share your labels for it. I have my own. Sort of like, my own theory. Just like many others who share a similar learning path, we know a lot of these things. If you play around with composition long enough you develop a very strong sense for what works and what doesn’t work. And when you notice the patterns, you don’t even need to play it to know whether it will or will not work. And that’s what composing music is all about - producing a sound that works. I am quite confident with improvisation of chord combinations and solos because of this. Practice really is everything. What’s wrong with my spelling? I’m usually meticulous when it comes to spelling and grammar!

]

whitebluesboy wrote:

I agree with the title. Play now to get an interest in the instrument and have fun with it, then learn theory later to get good at what you have fun doing. That doesn't mean learning concepts of bach counterpoint or shit like that, but learning 1-IV-V and the major scale can't hurt.

Bingo! My major point is that after a while of having fun with the instrument, you will start to learn theory naturally. However, learning some concepts formally, such as scales, will certainly help you to become better, much faster. Being told the solution will always be a much faster process than trial and error!

[quote]garthunkle wrote:

I must say that i feel the best way to learn is through a tutor. The first 2 i had were really bad and i learnt nothing for the first 1

[Birds]

garthunkle wrote:

I must say that i feel the best way to learn is through a tutor. The first 2 i had were really bad and i learnt nothing for the first 1yr of playing. I then got a new teacher and I've learnt so much more. I learnt theory while i was learning songs and that worked best for me. I have no idea how some self taught guitarists learn all the more complex things like arpeggios and non-western scales. Great article! Do what suits u!

Excellent viewpoint! I learnt those complex things through tablature – I have a very broad taste in music. I listen to almost anything and I have tried to learn almost everything I listen to. I suppose that is where someone in my learning path may be limited - if they restrict themselves to one particular style or genre of music and become trapped in the complexes characteristic of that style or genre. I was picking the individual notes of a chord before I even knew what an arpeggio was!

AFriendOfMisery wrote:

Well, you make alot of good points, but the only issue is that once you learn to look at guitar in a certain way (like just learning random songs by tab), it makes it really hard to start looking at your guitar in terms of "E A D G B E" instead of "Open first, open second.." and so on.
Learning theory is pretty important, but you are right in some ways because knowing how to hold the damn guitar right helps alot too.
Basically, you have a really good article, but instead of going straight to playing other people's stuff, you should learn at least a little theory first, probably from Major scales and key until triads.

I do both! Indeed, I did begin to look at my guitar in terms of open, fret 1 and fret 2. I still do when I read some tablature. However, these days I also see EADGBE, with the 3rd fret of A being a C etc. because it is much easier to compose music when you look at a fretboard this way.

ElBarto2811 wrote:

Well my brother-in-law thinks exactly like you. We both started playing the guitar at the same time, and after three years I think I can tell I'm teaching him now. What I'm saying is indeed you don't need to know theory, but it so much easier and faster if you do. For example my brother-in-law knows you have to play frets 0-2-3-5-7-8-10-12 to 'sound good' by experimenting, I knew this almost instantly when I learned what a minor scale was.

Agree with you completely.

Mortigi Tempo wrote:

theory is very important by learning basic chords and how to solo around a few scales like minor pentatonic, major and minor you become a much better player. I know a lot of people who are like yeah i dont know any theory but im naturally great cause i am jimi hendrix and its like no youre not youre crap. All this theory isnt needed stuff is just an excuse for lazy people to be crap I think.

Scales make excellent foundations for solos. Whether you learn these scales from a book, tablature or by yourself shouldn’t make any difference though. I think those people you know need to learn some theory one way or another before they start claiming that! And I don’t think anyone here is suggesting we don’t need theory at all.

[Birds]

Atreideslegend wrote:

really bad article, many of your arguements are badly thought out, whats all this stuff about "theory first?" I dont know a single guitar player that learnt theory before playing their guitar and i dont agree with this whole concept of seperating "theory" and "playing". The two are synonomous and should not be seperated.

I dont care what anyone says, if you cant play in key then you will never be a good musician, how you learn to do it doesnt matter, there are just easy ways and harder ways. I suggest anyone reading this article should just ignore it and find your own way of doing things, by saying "you dont have to learn theory" you're just doing the same thing as people that say "you have to learn theory", can u not just be silent?

Woah! Did I strike a bad note (pun not intended) with you? Perhaps I should have explained it better, as I do see where you are coming from when you say the two cannot be separated. What I mean by theory first, is a guitarist who takes the time at the beginning of their journey to learn theory, whether they do this synonymously with playing the guitar or not. What I mean by theory later, is a guitarist who ignores/seldom explores theory, jumping straight into playing songs and creating their own. I do believe theory later guitarists will learn theory naturally, provided they develop a will to compose music. They may also choose to read theory books at the same time or instead to gain this knowledge faster! I agree with you about key. Music, particularly in western culture, is not pleasing on the ears unless it is played in key. Why tell people to ignore this article? If they disagree with it they will anyway. I am not telling people how to learn guitar, I am making a statement for those of us who feel our choice of learning path never limited our musical ability. Consequently, as the comments show, it has brought together many people who have chosen this learning path and I hope this reassures them that their choice was no mistake. I never said “you don’t have to learn theory”. To effectively compose music, I most certainly think you do. All I’m saying is, you don’t have to learn it straight away, or formally for that matter, to be a good guitarist and composer. Because you can learn it later on without even trying.

nightwind wrote:

The music was far more crude before they started developing theory. It was unrefined, and they had very little idea about structure, dissonance treatment, and counterpoint. It was far simpler and basic in the time you mention.

There are many guitarists like you. It's good you feel proud, as you should.

However, you will have several holes in your knowledge. You may be able to get your point across, but you will always be missing things that may be very important. Now of course, it all depends on what your goals are. Mine must certainly be very different than yours.

Further, even while learning theory "from a book", you can still make these discoveries. Learning from a book does not mean that their has to be a strict and dry regiment to it. You can just learn more whenever you want to, or feel you need it. With it, you can be sure you are going down the right track instead of getting bits of understanding. You don't make the same grand connections if you don't have a solid base understanding that you get from learning "formally".

True, however they would still have produced sounds that are aurally pleasing. And to do this there would have to have been at least some structure, pattern or melody to it, even if it was nowhere near as refined as music after developing theory. I agree with you about holes in knowledge – there are some things that you cannot teach yourself, even in a lifetime of self discovery. If I ever have motivation to, I will most certainly turn to formal theory for guidance in filling those gaps. I’m glad you recognise that different goals necessitate different lengths and styles of learning – it’s rare that I come across people who acknowledge we are all different! What are your goals? Mine, I feel, could be achieved without ever opening a theory book. That is not to say I never will, however. Curiosity always gets the better of the human race. And goals can change.

[Birds]

Septerra wrote:

Thanks for writing this pal. I've been playing for about two months now and started looking at theory only a couple weeks in because I kept getting hammered with the message that I needed it to be anything. The major scale made a little since to me, even though I couldn't possibly apply it playing yet, but then when I got to the circle of fifths and key signatures, I was completely overwelmed. I was frustrated that none of the articles I read told me how to use the things I learned on the guitar step by step with each new thing learned. I think I'm going to lay off this theory that gives me a pounding headache every time I look at it, and I'll come back to it when I become a better player.

Do whatever works for you. As long as you stick with guitar, you can come back to theory later and it will seem much more useful because you are familiar with the application of it in the songs you have learnt. I think many students drop guitar because they get the impression that the only way to learn is to learn theory straight away when they don’t care for it. Which is sad, because they miss out on learning a great instrument.

Timefore wrote:

I disagree with this article. Was it Miles Davis who said "Jazz is 99% perspiration 1% inspiration"?
Although music comes from the heart - you need a solid foundation. What you're saying is that you can learn the language of music without theory. Well, maybe, but what's the point? Learning chord structure, interesting scales, harmony, whatever is extremely worthwhile and fun. Perhaps you just had a bad teacher - the teachers I have had have been stimulating and encourage me to take the initiative.
Imagine trying to learn a new language with no theory - you could do it, it'd just be pointlessly hard.

I’m not saying you can learn the language of music without theory. Theory IS the language of music. What I’m saying is that you will not be limited in your ability to play and compose music if you decide to postpone your learning of theory, because you will pick it up naturally as opposed to learning it formally - provided you have a desire to compose music. I agree with you – chord structure, interesting scales and harmony are extremely worthwhile and fun – I just learnt them a different way to you.

There seems to be a little confusion amongst some about the intention of my article. At no point do I downplay the importance of music theory in composition. It is something you have to learn in order to compose music that works - I simply believe that you can learn a great deal of it naturally. Hence the title “Play now, theory later”. Otherwise I’d have called it “Play now, theory never”. I envy you who had the patience and/or interest to learn theory prior to or simultaneously with your guitar playing. I feel that all I now know could have been known a lot faster, had I the devotion towards music theory that I did towards playing. I do not regret my path, however, as I have had and will continue to have a fantastic journey. That said, I find myself investigating theory more and more these days because I have a greater appreciation of it and I now find myself working with other musicians – for this, I need your labels. And I also recognize that no matter how self taught I am, I cannot discover hundreds of years worth of knowledge in the space of my lifetime. I am far from knowing all there is to know about guitar or music for that matter - I don’t think anyone could claim to have learnt everything. Thanks again for the comments. I look forward to writing more articles!

[Dardarian]

Very nice article! It matches an idea that I've had in my head for a while: Theory should be used to DESCRIBE something that's happening in music, it should not PRESCRIBE what should happen when you're writing a song. In other words, you should compose based on what sounds good to you. Theory is only meant to clarify things and help communication.

[VoodooHammer]

Very nice article. I think theory is a must. I was in an orchestra playing Bass fiddle, Violin, and Cello for four years. Now, I need to re-learn the Music theory that I forced out of my skull after quitting all that.

[realic]

Ibanezax372 wrote:

I hate people that use
'Learnt". First of all it is not a word and second of all it is "Learned". Please use correct grammer next time.

First of all Learnt is a word, it can be used interhcangably with "have learned" and is more common in British English. Sorry to others for posting this, I just hate ignorance of the arrogant.

[troyponce]

I disagree with the premise of the article. Learning names of scales and intervals makes everything so much easier. Is it boring as hell? Yeah, it is, but when I'm trying to teach other people in a band a song I wrote, I want to be able to just say the interval and have them know what I'm talking about.

If you guys just want to play Blink 182, then stick with what you are doing. If you want to become better musicians then you are going to have to study a whole lot more. Tabs won't help you improvise over Funnels or Countdown.

[J Remmy Jerms]

Good article. I started out learning from tabs. It was cool at first, then it got frustrating not knowing anything besides a few chords. I started to lose intrest in guitar untill I started learning music theory. I enjoy teaching myself music theory because now I actually know what I'm doing.

[Birds]

troyponce wrote:

I disagree with the premise of the article. Learning names of scales and intervals makes everything so much easier. Is it boring as hell? Yeah, it is, but when I'm trying to teach other people in a band a song I wrote, I want to be able to just say the interval and have them know what I'm talking about.

If you guys just want to play Blink 182, then stick with what you are doing. If you want to become better musicians then you are going to have to study a whole lot more. Tabs won't help you improvise over Funnels or Countdown.

I have clearly stated in the article that it is more efficient to learn theory formally as opposed to naturally. For the record, I have learnt the names of scales from tablature and if you were to ask me for a particular key or scale I would be able to play it. IF I didn't know these labels, well, I could sit down for a day and just attach them. Because I already know how to play them. I think you misinterpreted the playing of Blink 182 songs. They were simply the songs that made some of us want to learn guitar. I have long surpassed them and like I said, moved onto songs that make more complex use of guitars. I am also quite confident with my improvisation skills. You really cannot judge our method of learning until you have tried it for yourself. Unfortunately, if you have already learnt theory formally, it is a little too late! People, if you have criticism please read the entire article before posting it - you might find I have already answered your comments.

[Crayola666]

Man I can really relate to what your saying. I took lessons for a few months my teacher would show me scales and such. I wasnt really that interested in the whole theory because at the time i just wanted to play music. So i stopped for a while because it felt like work. A few months later I picked up my guitar and im hooked. I know some theory not by names but by what works and what doesnt. I just picked it up from learning songs. And thats how it should be. I NOW would like to learn more about theory but the names and all that discourages me and I would prefer to just play and have a good time.

[perky_123]

wahay i wroked out taht thing with the b-string aswell by ear that u have to move up or down a fret, maybe someday i will be a guitar god like you then

[Habit Zero]

Great article, I feel much the same way, and in fact I am going to be asking my guitar teacher to step away from scales and start teaching me techniques, so that I can finish up taking lessons, and progress on my own (and so I have the cash for a couple piano lessons).

[br4vw]

Good article - people need to realise there is no one universal way to learning an instrument - elitist guitarists are often quick to criticise and equally as quick to forget their humble roots.

[DemonDante]

Very good article, I enjoyed the read!

[birdmilk13]

Here is my deal...I'm actually still in high school and am lucky enough to have a music program that is thriving(as opposed to being cut like many other school's music programs). I have been playing guitar for 3 or 4 years now and I thought I understood a lot about theory. I took the the music theory class as well as the guitar class and realized that what I thought was theory was just the basics. I now am so much better at guitar than before and it is because of music theory. So what i am saying is that you shouldn't just stop and think that theory will come naturally as you play: it doesn't. You should become good at your instrument first(I do agree with that) and then theory. Use guitar to help you understand theory and theory to help you understand guitar. Although a few things you said were slightly ignorant, it was a good article.

[rik23]

lesson 6. Shredding.....you forgot that bit!

[KurtSlashJimi]

hell i can rock but i dont no shit about theory (well accually i know a little but it doesnt help me rok) good article i suport ur ideas fully

[KurtSlashJimi]

if u wanna quit guitar after playin for a week then learn theory first if you want to fall in love with guitar and sit in your room for hours playing it then lear all your favorite songs first (like me)

[i bleed metal]

great article, ive been teaching myself guitar for about 2 years, and its been great. i figured id take lessons to speed up the process by learning some music theory, i figured it was about that time. all ive learned is that i ****ing hate music teachers and im sticking to teaching myself. took me about a month of lessons to realize that.

[cosbo3]

i self-taught myself when i got a crappy guitar as a prize at an amusement park, ever since then which has been less than a year i have tried hard to teach myself and have taught myself okay, though still need practice to speed up te process of trying to play solos for songs

[Jonjy2]

Good article man

[battleguard]

I disagree completely.. no one will get any farther if each new person has to learn and relearn by doing and finding out by themselves.. no one learned their prime language by just messing around and seeing what sounded good..

To get better.. you have to build on others' knowledge.. What they have found out.. then take it farther.. otherwise.. you get to a certain level.. and you stop growing..

Thats what theory is.. others' knowledge put down on paper.. What they find works.. not only audibly but also technical.. and music, while a creative art, is just as much a technical subject..

If you put A C and E together.. they WILL sound good.. or good to most people.. thats technically known.. a deaf person could do that..

If you play songs without knowing what youre playing.. then FIRST OF ALL.. YOU CANNOT IMPROVISE W/O THEORY at all.. If you practice what Slash and Blink 182 play and improvise using that.. lol where do you end up?!

You'll play an Am and play it over and over again.. maybe get a note or two farther because it locally sounds good.. but not far at all..

[DTheater]

I agree that you do need to build on other's knowledge, but music is more personal if you figure some things on your own.

[dgme92]

i have never touched a theory book, but i completely agree with the idea that you CAN learn things, like theory, without knowing WHAT they are. at least that's what i could decipher from the article.

to the author: excellent work. keep writing articles

[sionsion]

Great article. Sounds almost exactly like me, I have been teaching myself from tabs for over a year now, and never learned any formal theory. I used to play piano/keyboard, and the lessons turned into a chore. Rock on

[koh132001]

Amen dude, it also sounds exactly same as me. Couz I never learn formally and not even bother to buy a theory books or music sheets. I been trying to build up my skills with the cover songs and figure out my own tunes and technique for past 5 years and now I look back my guitar history, is like BAMm how come I learned all those weird notes and complex solo back there without an instructor or a guide. It is quite true, dude.

[Birds]

battleguard wrote:

I disagree completely.. no one will get any farther if each new person has to learn and relearn by doing and finding out by themselves.. no one learned their prime language by just messing around and seeing what sounded good..

To get better.. you have to build on others' knowledge.. What they have found out.. then take it farther.. otherwise.. you get to a certain level.. and you stop growing..

Thats what theory is.. others' knowledge put down on paper.. What they find works.. not only audibly but also technical.. and music, while a creative art, is just as much a technical subject..

If you put A C and E together.. they WILL sound good.. or good to most people.. thats technically known.. a deaf person could do that..

If you play songs without knowing what youre playing.. then FIRST OF ALL.. YOU CANNOT IMPROVISE W/O THEORY at all.. If you practice what Slash and Blink 182 play and improvise using that.. lol where do you end up?!

You'll play an Am and play it over and over again.. maybe get a note or two farther because it locally sounds good.. but not far at all..

I disagree with that. The self taught are accustomed to experimentation and self discovery out of necessity. We never stop looking for innovation because our education did not come from a theory text book, it came from our own exploration. You can expand on current musical theory all you like – no doubt it will help music as a whole - but when it comes to guitar playing, we are the ones who produce the original sound. I have my own style that is characterised by no teacher or extent of learning theory, only my own exploration. That is why song structure differs so widely from culture to culture. That is why we have a hundred different genres. There wasn’t a universal line of knowledge passed down from generation to generation and expanded upon. There were many lines, starting from many people. It is hard to play outside of the rules you have been given – hence western songs, for example, follow a similar structure. But if you haven’t been given these rules, you produce your own and therefore an original sound.

Comparing music to a spoken language is apples to oranges. You can’t invent spoken language and expect people to understand it. You can invent music and people can enjoy the sound of it.

I agree that you cannot improvise without theory. But who said we haven’t learnt theory? We just learnt it for ourselves. How can you say our method fails if we know it succeeds? If you believe you cannot pick up on theory by playing a hundred different tabs and analysing them for similarities and contrasts - then fine - stick with rote learning your theory. But I’ll have to cry ignorance on that one. Lastly, I have taken styles and techniques from a hundred different artists, combining and modifying them. So who is expanding on others’ knowledge? My improvisation would leave you guessing for hours where all the influences came from. Who says my improvisation is based solely on practicing what Slash and Tom DeLonge play? Learning your theory formally won’t make you any more susceptible to innovation than I. In fact, I believe it to be quite the opposite.

[Birds]

dgme92 wrote:

i have never touched a theory book, but i completely agree with the idea that you CAN learn things, like theory, without knowing WHAT they are. at least that's what i could decipher from the article.

to the author: excellent work. keep writing articles

You deciphered correctly! I wish I had written the article so it didn't need deciphering

Unfortunately, it is a difficult topic to write on without making mistakes or invoking confusion. But I think 90% of people understood what I was saying. Thank you! I will be writing more articles shortly.

[Trutru_iknow]

I completely agree with you. I also taught my self six years ago on death metal. I don't think i could have picked a better genre for me. All the scales and theory came with the genre. I am now 17, and at the beginning of the school year decided to take guitar to better my skills, but found that I can play better than the teacher, and he didn't know anything but the basics, so I dropped the class.

Anyway, it is awesome to be able to teach your self and go "God damn" when you learn something new.

Excellent article.

[randyrhoads#1]

not that everyone wnats to, but simply put shred=theory. Ask satriani, vai, petrucci, gilbert, malmsteen and even down to slash, wylde, dime etc. they all know what key, what scale and usually what mode they are playing in. you will not naturally pick up on any of those three things. You might use them mistakenly but not on purpose. Sure you develop some theory just playing but knowing what you are doing and where you can go from there opens up a whole new and wonderful way to play guitar

[goods2006]

I've always found that as I learn new things on guitar (theory type things) I pick up the theory with it.

If I want to play blues for example, and I learn a couple of blues progressions and scales I learn how and why they are formed at the same time. It's the drive to learn something, and not just a little about the something but everything there is to know about it including the theory. I hope that made sense.

[stratplyr01]

so true

[battleguard]

Birds wrote:
I disagree with that. The self taught are accustomed to experimentation and self discovery out of necessity. We never stop looking for innovation because our education did not come from a theory text book, it came from our own exploration. You can expand on current musical theory all you like – no doubt it will help music as a whole - but when it comes to guitar playing, we are the ones who produce the original sound. I have my own style that is characterised by no teacher or extent of learning theory, only my own exploration. That is why song structure differs so widely from culture to culture. That is why we have a hundred different genres. There wasn’t a universal line of knowledge passed down from generation to generation and expanded upon. There were many lines, starting from many people. It is hard to play outside of the rules you have been given – hence western songs, for example, follow a similar structure. But if you haven’t been given these rules, you produce your own and therefore an original sound.

Comparing music to a spoken language is apples to oranges. You can’t invent spoken language and expect people to understand it. You can invent music and people can enjoy the sound of it.

I agree that you cannot improvise without theory. But who said we haven’t learnt theory? We just learnt it for ourselves. How can you say our method fails if we know it succeeds? If you believe you cannot pick up on theory by playing a hundred different tabs and analysing them for similarities and contrasts - then fine - stick with rote learning your theory. But I’ll have to cry ignorance on that one. Lastly, I have taken styles and techniques from a hundred different artists, combining and modifying them. So who is expanding on others’ knowledge? My improvisation would leave you guessing for hours where all the influences came from. Who says my improvisation is based solely on practicing what Slash and Tom DeLonge play? Learning your theory formally won’t make you any more susceptible to innovation than I. In fact, I believe it to be quite the opposite.

And so what happens when you play with a band and you are told that you will be playing in Abm and under the progression yknow.. w/e.. FmMaj7 to Ebadd11.. how dyou propose to play with the changes w/o theory?

Theory also teaches what notes sound good with what.. and im sure you can find that out by playing as well.. very very difficult tho, because some tones that sound good arent instantaneously apparent, and then an experimenter might wave the notes over the progression as bad sounding.. if u see what i mean..

Also.. w/o theory.. dyou KNOW what a FmMaj7 is?

[justin_fraser]

Jeez, Im kind of scared by the response in here. I am with all the guys who disagree here. About everything battleguard said I agree with. You need to have theory if you want to solo. Sure you can figure notes out that sound good, but all you are doing is playing notes that would be in a scale that you couldve just learned in 5 minutes rather than a half hour of doodling.

It makes so much more sense to just learn theory, not be lazy, and explore. Dont make it a chore of course, have fun with it, but with theory, you can express yourself so much more.

Now I will agree that if you are a beginner you should have tons of fun while playing. Dont worry about theory just yet if you are just starting, but have fun. There does reach a point where tabs dont help your playing anymore (and Ive hit that point last year) and you need to move on to bigger and better things.

[ZootCst]

Thanks for contributing to the stereotype other musicians have that guitar players don't know what the hell they're doing.

How do you get a guitar player to play quitely?
Give him sheet music.

[David Fyfield]

Thanks for the article,

This is excellent because it opens debate and then people with different points of veiw can express themselves. Variety is the spice of life.
Its good to ask the question why? when you discover sounds that work together, and why not when they don't.
Often when a song writer goes outside a key and returns or finds something works that is not perfectly harmonic it exites the listeners ears and by presenting a musical suprise, can give great pleasure to the listener.

A simple example of this is "Dock of the bay" chords.

I think most people would agree that combining music theory with an open mind to accept anthing is a good approach. I do not know of any guitar players I have met and talked to who do not whish they know more and most regret not being able to sight read music

This does not mean you have to play what others have played. I do not think anyone would whish to "Paint by numbers" or play exactly something that was recorded and set in time, although I do appreciate the
sence of achievement when, say, you play "Blackbird" exacly how Paul Macartney plays it Live. You move on as a player, feel confident that you can, and then use it as a party peice rather than performing it.

Isn't it wonderful that everything is OK. There is no right or wrong way and every individual is free to choose their own path.

[Birds]

randyrhoads#1 wrote:

not that everyone wnats to, but simply put shred=theory. Ask satriani, vai, petrucci, gilbert, malmsteen and even down to slash, wylde, dime etc. they all know what key, what scale and usually what mode they are playing in. you will not naturally pick up on any of those three things. You might use them mistakenly but not on purpose. Sure you develop some theory just playing but knowing what you are doing and where you can go from there opens up a whole new and wonderful way to play guitar

I use them on purpose all the time. You think scales, keys and modes aren't named in some tabs? Or that I don't know what I'm playing when I improvise and compose? Not that it should matter, because names are irrelevant as long as you can produce something that sounds good, but I do. And I have played songs all over the fretboard, so I knew what worked and what didn't before I knew the names of scales.

[Birds]

battleguard wrote:

And so what happens when you play with a band and you are told that you will be playing in Abm and under the progression yknow.. w/e.. FmMaj7 to Ebadd11.. how dyou propose to play with the changes w/o theory?

Theory also teaches what notes sound good with what.. and im sure you can find that out by playing as well.. very very difficult tho, because some tones that sound good arent instantaneously apparent, and then an experimenter might wave the notes over the progression as bad sounding.. if u see what i mean..

Also.. w/o theory.. dyou KNOW what a FmMaj7 is?

What happens? I attach your labels to my knowledge. If you told me to play in a particular key and I didn't know it, it would take you 5 seconds to explain to me what you were on about. That said, through my experiences playing I already know many of your labels and I could play in FmMaj7 if you asked me to. I know it is F with a minor triad and a major seventh chord, something you'll find for commonly in the genre of jazz, but did I need to know that? Or did I just need to know how to play it and keep it sounding good?

And yes, it is difficult to learn what sounds good just by playing. It took many songs and many hours of experimentation. I said in the article that learning theory formally is more efficient. Nonetheless, I still learnt what sounds good and enjoyed every minute of it.

[Birds]

justin_fraser wrote:

Jeez, Im kind of scared by the response in here. I am with all the guys who disagree here. About everything battleguard said I agree with. You need to have theory if you want to solo. Sure you can figure notes out that sound good, but all you are doing is playing notes that would be in a scale that you couldve just learned in 5 minutes rather than a half hour of doodling.

It makes so much more sense to just learn theory, not be lazy, and explore. Dont make it a chore of course, have fun with it, but with theory, you can express yourself so much more.

Now I will agree that if you are a beginner you should have tons of fun while playing. Dont worry about theory just yet if you are just starting, but have fun. There does reach a point where tabs dont help your playing anymore (and Ive hit that point last year) and you need to move on to bigger and better things.

You do need theory if you want to solo. We have theory, we just learnt it differently to you. If you have the patience to learn theory formally, by all means do it. In the short term you will be able to express yourself better than guitarists who do not learn it formally. However, down the track we pick up what you have learnt and are in no way limited in our ability to express ourselves.

[MoreDread]

My two cents:

I was classically trained from 9-15. However, I was not taught theory, just how to read the notes put in front of me (like most kids are taught in band, etc...). At 15 I got an electric guitar and my instructor was not pleased. He did start working with me on it, but I eventually stopped taking lessons. One of the last things he taught me was the minor pentatonic scales. I vaguely remember forming the basics of what would become my soloing style for the next...20-something years. I learned to play by ear - even teaching myself to play Van Halen, Tony Macalpine, Satriani note for note. However, when I went to solo, I was a one-trick pony, pulling out the only flexible tool I knew to use.

I had learned how the five pentatonic patterns interlock on the neck, and that's where I lived when I solo'd. I heard the key the song was in, and away I went. But I was a pattern player, meaning if I could not figure out where I should be, of if the song did not fit those pentatonic patterns, I was left to noodle around until I found my way, but I did it very well.

Now, I say all that because I can see both sides of this coin. A musician can look at a chord chart, see the progression, the key it's in, and play an entire song without needing any other information. Not knowing theory will severely limit your ability to WORK as a musician (not play in a band, but actually get paying work as a fill-in player). You cannot do anything like that if you can't sight read AND if you don't know what the IV chord is if the song is in G without having to think about it.

However, I can play with any band, and it's not beacuse I know my theory well... I HEAR it all and I feel it..and that's more important to me. I'm very flexible, and I don't play the chord shapes many were taught to play - I play chord fragments that I hear and that I think fit the song and where I need to be to setup to solo. When I play, trust me, no one in the audience cares if I know the theory behind what I'm doing. It only matters when I'm communicating with musicians, and it DOES matter from time to time.
If I had learned how to play with chord changes earlier in my life, my playing would have been more melodic, but...would I be a better player?

I don't think so - my ability to play well by ear is more important to me than what I know about music theory - I have been on stage with pro musicians who had zero "feel" in their playing, and who needed a chord chart just to see how the song went. I'm so used to doing the "I hear it...here's how you play it" dance, that I can do it in seconds. Key changes on the fly, etc...are no problem. AND I've forced myself to expand beyond patterns when I solo by landing on "bad" notes on purpose and finding my way out...LOL.

I'm biased because of how I learned, but to me, it's much more important to be able to communicate how YOU feel than it is to bury yourself in theory. BUT I never set out to be a pro musician. If that's what you want, then you have no choice - you MUST know theory inside and out. To me that's the thing - if you want to make music, make music. If you want to WORK in music, learn theory. Robert Johnson and a host of other legendary players didn't learn theory before they played, and you don't need to either...UNLESS you want to make a living at it.